While the 2007 Interclub series for touring cars still has one round to run (Gold Coast next month), here are a few thoughts about next year. These of course are just ideas – I’m not part of the interclub committee
1 Day Events: I think it’s worth experimenting in 2008 with one day events. Two-day events is a lot for people to commit to over the course of the 8 months that the series covers. While we’re at it, I think 3 events is enough over the course of the year
Multiple Lower Finals: So often we sit around waiting for A finalist batteries to charge – I think it’s time we added a second final for the B & C & D finalists. Two finals, both to count will add minimal time to our race day, but give an extra race, and the experience of running multiple finalists to those who are working their way forward toward the A final.
540 Electric: I’m suggesting a new way of looking at 540. Firstly, it is open to all – except those who finish in the top 3 in the 2007 series. Secondly, I think current model “race” chassis could be banned. The Losi JRXS-R, Schumacher Mi3, Corally RDX Phi, AE TC5, Tamiya 415, Hotbodies Cyclone etc don’t belong in what should be a beginner/junior class. There are plenty of older generation race cars available second hand, or cheaper new cars (like the Tamiya TA05, Hotbodies Cyclone S etc).
Seniors/Masters: Time to introduce a new class for EP. Seniors/Masters will be for over 40 y/olds, running 27t brushed or 13.5 brushless (including sintered rotors and range of manufacturers) and will allow Li-Po batteries. Anybody making a modified A final at Qld Titles in 2007 would be politely asked not to race seniors in 2008.
Stock: Allow li-po batteries, 13.5 brushless motors from range of manufacturers (sticking with bonded rotors only)
Modified: 5 or 6 cell as current. Allow li-po batteries. 5 cell weight is 1420, 6-cell/li-po is 1520
1/8: I think 1/8 could be run at tracks where it is feasible. In SEQ that would mean Gold Coast, Sunshine Coast and Brendale roudns of the series could be opened up to 1/8 racers as well. If the “1-day” event format doesn’t get up, then perhaps a Nitro Day / EP Day split?
19t: I would ditch 19t if it’s a one day race format.
Just for the sake of discussion….
Stories from the world of RC car racing
35 responses to “2008 Interclub – Just a Few Ideas….”
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Seniors/Master’s age limits at 40…. and how old are you again, lol…. what about an age limit of 45? We need to shut out the kids ya know.
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Wouldn’t 60 and over be more appropriate ?
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Seriously though I do think there are a few issues to think about before teh format for next year is set – some of teh delegates have already been talking some of these issues through between themselves but some more positive ideas and suggestions like the above would be very helpful and welcome by all delegates
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I agree with alot of the suggestions you made, especially lipo/brushless, however I don’t agree with limiting the 540 class as you have suggested.
I’m not yet ready to step up to mod, so if I wish to run 2 classes, where does it leave me?
I don’t know what the solution is, but the 540 masters seemed to be a real hit this year.LikeLike
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Ash,
Just a thought… Why do you “Need” to run two classes at a (proposed) One Day Event? Sure we’ve all done it at some time or other, but I don’t know too many people that have been successful at it. Normally both classes suffer then just concentrating on doing very well at one.
Regards,
PeterLikeLike
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50 and over sounds beter to me.
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1 Day Events: Agree, make them 1 day, but still have 4 rounds spread thru the year.
Multiple Lower Finals: Agree.
540 Electric: Agree, limit the cars, or call it novice, or limit it to under 18’s – something to keep it for the kids
Seniors/Masters: Hmmm, not sure about this one. There was more controversy within this class at the Qld titles than the actual title events!
I certainly wouldn’t allow sintered rotors – the performance difference is too large – drivers would have to run them to be competative.
Stock: Agree, run any 13.5 turn bonded only brushless.
Modified: Agree.
1/8: Agree if the events stay as 2 days – an electric and a nitro day as suggested.
19t: I don’t see this class being offered enough for it’s popularity to grow. Not sure no-one is interested in this class as a stepping stone to Mod?
Finally, I’m still not sure about li-po – Would like to hear from those who have run them to confirm that they aren’t an advantage in a 5 minute race.LikeLike
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Pete,
I am not really any good at either class, so if I’m going to suck I may as well get double the amount of races in…
😀LikeLike
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I agree with the one day event in some aspects. It firstly allows people to run two classes. Which is a good thing for experience but then at the same time allows those who have the most members to gain domination by just attendance. Maybe that should be limited so it is more a level playing field for each club???
540 – I like the no current chasis. It would one help encourage those that are starting into the hobby be more competitive as well as limit the money needed to be competitive. As most people are saying it is a beginers class so therefore a begginer would not have the extras – tyre warmers, new batteries……..
Maybe a creation of a control class. Say you run a certain chasis, limit the electrics to a certain motor and electronics to some extent as well as the tyres and batteries as well. Make it reachable to the average racer in hope that it takes over the 540 masters class.
I hope to be apart of this next year after getting more tips and tricks from other people to make my car faster and more reliable.
Robert.LikeLike
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I like the 2 day event format but i think 3 events a year would be enough.
I think multiple lower finals would be an excellent idea as quite often we are trying to fill in time while the ‘A’ Finalists batteries are charging.
I don’t think there needs to be an age limit as it stops new people from having a go at a bigger meet, but agree on limiting the equipment like the chassis.
Seniors/Masters
I think it would be a good idea to try and get them out of 540, also think it would be a good area to test new technology before it’s approved for the other classes.
Stock
I couldn’t care less if they allow lipo as a good NiMH pack will beat it over 5min. I am not keen on allowing other brands of 13.5’s even with the bonded rotors as the LRP is as fast as a sintered Novak. This was shown at the summernats, going this route would make it a motor of the month type thing.LikeLike
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I’m a big fan of keeping it simple and having fewer classes of more competitors.
Novice
It is my hope that by naming the class for its intended participants it’ll stop people treating it as a specialist motor class. Hopefully this is enough to encourage people to run to the spirit of this class without needing complicated rules. I don’t think this name is derogatory for those racing this class.
Stock
This is the class for the masses – the more people running in it the better, adds to the atmosphere of race days. I’m not a fan of having too many classes and only just having enough people to bother running a B final.
It has got to the point where we might as well think about all or nothing with brushless, especially if Li-Po is being tabled. It doesn’t help that no major bodies have come out with rule sets to govern the specs for them to be manufactured to but I’m starting to think perhaps it’d be better to swing the rules in favour of brushless instead of having a long, drawn out cross over period.
Saying bonded only is being too close minded – from what I’ve seen an LRP (which runs a bonded rotor) is as fast as the Novak with a sintered rotor which would leave the current motors for dead. I’d be thinking allow everything that’s within a certain band of performance, regardless of rotor type.
And if it goes this way do you then think about having 8 minute races more along the lines of the highly successful Japanese 23T class?
Mod
As long as 5 cell remains catered for with a lowered weight limit all is well. 5 cell really makes the class a lot more accessible which is great. Probably just increase the 5 cell weight to 1400g (plus timing equip) from 1350g so that people don’t go doing silly things that really only weaken their cars to try to get down to the minimum weight.
Pull-start
This might be over simplifying (coming from an electric driver) but go to a single legal motor that is readily available and quit the bitching. I guess for people turning up with RTR’s etc, you’d let them run with the engine that came with their car.
Pro tourer
This class is sorted as it’s a national class.
1/8th scale
When possible, why not – it’s the booming class in nitro at the moment.
I too think 19 turn should be dropped. As a mod driver that’s run the class a lot it feels more like a second stock class. You won’t learn anything useful for mod in 19T that you haven’t already learnt in stock, as the leap in power from either class is just as big and you’ll only come to terms with that by actually racing modified. On top of that we simply don’t have the numbers to justify a second stock class, especially if the event moves to a one day format.
The only other thing I can add to that is it’d be nice if the winners of the B and C, etc. finals got a trophy or medallion, recognising them for their efforts in winning their final (think of this as wining their skill level group within a class).
Might help stop the whole border line Stock A drivers dropping back to 540 are trophy hunting type arguments.LikeLike
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Forgot to add that I’m absolutely in favour of 2 mains for all of the lower finals.
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Anything else… maybe a sock…lol
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1 or 2 day event is fine with me, but I do agree that maybe some changes are needed.
A masters class, I dont think there is enough competitors to really start down the segragating line just yet, not that its a bad idea, but we want to pack the classes we already have with as many competitors as possible as I feel that really adds to the enjoyment of larger event type meetings, the higher you finish in a large field is much more rewarding that in a field of less.
540, I dont think there is any magic pill to stop the bitching surrounding this class. I agree with the Novice name change and maybe remove the recognition by way of trophies etc. The limited chassis idea is a good stepping stone to returning this class to it’s rightful place of “Novice”.
Stock
Nothing wrong with it as it is, however, rather than allowing the LRP and Sintered Rotored motors and lipo’s to compete for the same trophy, or having to add yet another class, why not allow all competitors to race together but for seperate titles. This will no doubt greatly increase the attendance within this class and the “sanctioned” class competitors will have their own trophy as will the “future Stock” class guys. for want of a better term. They can race in the same races, along side each other for 6 mins. Would be a great way to further guage any performance differences between the future items and the current. No one is disadvantaged and it is all good racing in the end.
19T, not sure aboput this one, maybe dropping it is a good idea, but I know that some use it as a good way of tuning for the track, especially if it’s a track you havent raced on previously.
Mod, with 5 cells currently being the set up of choice, this class has once again become a much more expensive class to run competitively in, due to the return of battery and run time issues. I think lipo’s, 6 cells and 5 cells shoiuld be allowed to run in this class, increase the 5 cell weight to 1420 fully loaded and reduce the 6 cell weight to 1485 to account for the weight difference of lipo’s.
GT or Pull Start. With all the crap associated with this class, like 540 it deserves to be scrapped, but limiting it to a single make motor may help to kill it as it is an expense that some may not be able to afford, after all it is the novice gas class. Just set the guidlines, name the motors and anything outside of that is not allowed.
Pro Gas, is what it is.
If a one day event, I feel you would have to remove a few classes, maybe have it Stock, Mod, GT and Pro Gas, with 1:8th being allowable at the tracks that can run them.
3 events would be plenty. Say, Wynnum, Landsborough and Logan.
I also feel that only one class a competitor races in should count towards the club tally and there should have to be a minimum competitor count for each club before any points can be scored. If under that set number of say 10 entrants, they could still race but no points for that club would be recorded. Would be a good way of getting non supportive clubs, like Brendale and GC to get members there, or simply remove them from the competition.
Cheers
AaronLikeLike
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aaron- 5 cell dont get a weight concession because they’re lighter, it’s because they have less voltage and therefore less power.
thoretically with lipo running with a slightly higher nominal voltage than 6 cell they should have to add extra weight ontop of the 1525. but we know it doesnt work out like that on the track so leaving lipo at 1525 isn’t a drama.LikeLike
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Howdy all. Long time racer, first time poster, recently back on the wagon 🙂
STOCK – while brushless has many obvious appeals over brushed, I honestly think that trying to approve “equivalent” motors in the long term is an exercise in futility, although it seems a reasonable stop gap. Personally I think we need to say something like :
– Run the rules as-is until date X (June 08 or December 08 maybe) – brushed stock or bonded novak 13.5, just like it is now
– Give everyone a good lot of notice (6 months minimum, more is preferable) and say ok, at that date, you will be able to run a sintered 13.5 brushless against brushed stock motors
– Let brushed technology die a natural death at the cutoff date. Give people 6 months or more to use up all their current brushed gear, save $$ for their brushless, sell their brushed gear interstate, whatever.
– People with existing legal bonded novak 13.5’s can simply buy a sintered rotor and be competitive
– Probably the most important point. If you approve this stuff for club/interclub meetings, it MUST MUST MUST be legal for state titles. The current situation of people needing to buy brushed motors and NiMH packs for the titles when they run (or would like to run) Brushless and LiPo at club level is crazy, and a waste of money.
MOD : I love the idea of 5 cell for mod (no personal experience, but thre are obviously plenty of benefits, and the racers like it), and I certainly love the idea of Lipo for stock, but I would be concerned that this adds ANOTHER hurdle for jumping between stock and mod. We don’t need another hurdle like that do we? It’s hard enough for people to move up now.
If you’re going to allow Lipo in stock I think you need to be allowing it to run in mod, alongside 5 and 6 cell cars.
Given the obvious superiority of 5 cell over 6 cell in mod at the recent titles, is it feasible for modified to say something like :
5cell, 1400g
6cell, 1500g
lipo, 1500g
?? I don’t know enough to say if that (or something similar) is feasible or not, but it would allow people who run either NiMH or LiPo in stock to buy themselves a mod brushless and use their existing batteries and gear, while making the 6-versus-5 cell competition a little closer at the same time.
Just thoughts. They might be ill-considered, but just some ideas to throw aound. Good to see some positive discussion on these things.
Scott H.LikeLike
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I think the 2 day event has proven to be successful and going back to one day I think you will be restricting the event.
Gas Tourer should be controlled motor.
I like the idea of separate Nitro and Electric days. I think many would like that.
8 scale I dont know if that would be fair on clubs who dont have any members who race them and you are limited where you can race them.
If anyones interested in a Nitro drivers opinion on age limit for 540. Being over 16 doesnt mean you can drive fast , I am sure their is old farts 😉 out there who would like something cheap to run in to gain some experience before they decide to move up to something that acutally moves faster then grass growing. Definitely needs to be more skill based then age.LikeLike
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5 Cell weights are interesting… there a lot of talk about 1400g instead of the 1375g presently… So we start off with 1525g for 6 Cell, we drop a cell (loose 1.2V & 70g), and we say the new mark is 1375g or 1400g… doesn’t seem right to me?
In standard trim (brushless) there are none that can reach 1375g, and only one or two that can reach 1400g. So why the most popular is believed to be 1400g or 1430g the mark we should be aiming at? Even at 1450g my guess the majority would still be over. Does the Mod Class “need” to be that ones to buy there way (lightweight components) in an attempt to reach this “Holy Grail”?
Steven to my knowledge, there is no 540 age limit at the Inter-Club. The age limit is at State level and wasn’t set because of a younger skills base. It was more to do with limiting the intimidating presents (of those over 16) made of them when competing with kids in this class. Also, trophy hunting has always been a problem for many years by persons who have seemingly limitless amounts of money to throw at this beginner’s class.
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Sorry Peter, I thought the 16 rule was becoming standard. No problem, do understand it definitely needs to be kept simple.
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Here’s what Peter Ellis wrote on rcteck about the Brushless motors in Stock, I think he’s spot on, untill the motor makers and the controlling bodies get together and set some standards I can’t see ORRCA Qld allowing them at Title level.
OK heres the story on the brushless motors.
To start with,
1/ as said the inductance testing is not reliable enough and varies with different motors and rotor combinations = not good enough if only one manufacturer has a vague spec.
2/ It is so easy to actually change the coloured ring on the novak motor that you won’t know what you will be racing against.
3/ other motors that we have looked at, the winding are so easy to change over from another motor it is rediculous.
The avantage of the 27 turn brushed motor is the fact of the armature being what it is, not so with brushless. None of the brushless windings are clearly marked or as easily checked as a brushed motor.
With the help of Hobby Express so far (all importers are welcome to assist), we are looking at building test units that will be similar to a dyno for comparison testing and be able to log results of all the motors with different rotors and have a good cross section of information to be able to test at race meetings. Untill we can complete these tasks, we are hessitant to allow brushless motors to compete at sanctioned event in case of the above reasons.
Just to let you know, I have been running brushless motors for some time now and would like them introduced ASAP as well. But with the speed control technology that is available these days, it is so easy to change from one technology to the other in minutes.
Peter Ellis
AARCMCCLikeLike
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I am currently developing a dyno unit specifically for electric cars. You just strap the car to it and it will measure the power output.
Also it will be able to dyno the motor itself.
This would be easy enough to use during scrutineering.LikeLike
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I dunno about a car dyno ash – how do we account for different drag levels in different cars? How do we power the motors? What if someone dumps, and can’t drive the dyno after their race?
I think the best bet for brushless for sanctioned racing is to wait until roar/efra/brca/jmrca come up with some design specs that are more easily scrutineered. Might be a year away, but a better bet.
For interclub I’d let Li-po run in all classes next year. That would be a trial easily implemented and monitored. Restrict it to hard-case lipo’s only, or event use a set list of specific packs with known good reliability recordLikeLike
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The dyno for just the motor would be more accurate in this case.
For the input, you would use a “control” 7.2v power supply.
Not arguing over the rules, please don’t get me wrong.
Just trying to find ways to acheive a positive outcome.LikeLike
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Ashley you’ll need a Brushless speedy to run a Brushless motor, they have 3 phases to control, not like a Brushed which will run on a DC power source.
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I have an answer for that also,
you use the brushless speed control to run the motor…
the 7.2v control supply provides input to the speed control 🙂LikeLike
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The Interclub has always been a “bottom up” driven set of rules – in other words we run what the clubs (the members) are wanting to run week to week with some adjustments to fit the rules around all the participating clubs.
ORRCA on the other hand (and AARCMCC) are “top down” organisations – they reflect what happens at the top and work it down.
I wouldn’t want to see the Interclub go any other way than bottom up driven.
We have run Novak 13.5 brushless (bonded rotor ) motors in stock for 2 years now with hardly a murmur of complaint – I don’t see why we should stop doing that at Interclub just because world bodies and AARCMCC can’t move with the times – it’s a local comp, let’s keep it that way. There maybe other brushless motors that are suitable to be allowed in but at this stage I don’t know of one – I have a Speed Passion bonded rotor motr to test but at this stage can’t say if it is suitable. From test elsewhere it appears the LRp is too fast to be allowed in.
I have a lot of comment to make on the other suggestions and a few to add but it’s late now so maybe later this week I’ll get time.LikeLike
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I definately agree with your comments in your post,
“I don’t see why we should stop doing that at Interclub just because world bodies and AARCMCC can’t move with the times ”
hit the nail right on the head there.LikeLike
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The interclub concept is working at the moment.
One of the problems is to get the club members to support them. The clubs that agree to the concept should make the interclub a priority.
Double club points for Away meetings. No home meetings ect. It should be open to Any Club regardless of numbers attending.(everone should be proud of their club large or small)
Only Meakin and Landsbourgh have had large numbers of members attend away legs to date.
Small entries from some of the larger clubs
Wynnum (apart from Home) Gold Coast (only three or four members to three meets to date)
and Brendale need to step up.
The more people racing the more FUN!!
Keep the rules much the same. Encourage poeple to race at their level of ability with the equipment they have got. race brushed and brushless in the same heats but have trophies for highest placed
brushed and brushless. Run combined 540 classes
have trophies/ Ribbons for best improved, age levels ect. Make it FUNLikeLike
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Spot on Shane. Make it fun. This years series has been great. The friendly rivalry between the clubs and members in each class has made each event worth looking forward to. I think everybody has enjoyed the competition and gained respect for each others ability in race craft and car preparation. Very much apparent at the titles when nearly everyone knew each other.
I think we need to ensure the interclub committee takes on board comments such as those posted here, put them out to the members of the clubs and act on the feedback in a timely manner so next years events can be set on the calendar.
Then we all have plenty of time to plan for the events and ensure a good rollout of clubs attend.LikeLike
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This year for me was the first time that I have attended the interclub with any intention of being competitive. So I can only reflect on this year’s events that I have attended.
I would be happy to keep the two day event as is. I will start to run stock next year and whilst I am making that transition I would like to run 540 and stock at next years interclub events. So for me personally, I would like to see it remain a two day event. I have been to some other events that really stretch out the day and by the time the finals come; I am buggered from sitting out in the sun all day.
540 class. At the QLD titles this year the masters event was a hit in my opinion. It was a simple format and it kept people who wanted to race the class in the hobby. Run a 540 class and then a masters class if there are enough entries. I have always thought that a good way to get people to move up in classes was to reflect on last years results. Scott, you would get my vote if that’s the way it was suggested.
As for the rest of the classes, I really don’t know. I am currently gathering gear to run stock (brushed) and to be honest I really don’t understand enough of it yet to comment with any knowledge base.LikeLike
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Consider this as a suggestion.
Day 1.
One of the gas classes. (3 heats 20 minute final)
540 Novice. Entries from under 16’s or novices with their entry endorsed by their club secretary that they are genuine novices. (3 heats 3 finals)
Stock (3 heats 3 finals )
Mod qualifers – 5 or 6 rounds of qualifying (round by round)
Day 2
The other gas class (3heats 20 minute final)
Pro 540 (3 heats 3 finals )
13.5 brushless open (any 13.5 ) (3heats 3 finals)
Mod finals – 5 finals best 3 to count.
Please consider all teh ramifications of teh suggestion before jumping on me.LikeLike
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Part of the rationale for the above
Modified. With most of teh guys set up to run 5 cell unlikely they will want to re set their cars and batteries to run an intermediate class on the Saturday. The guys get to run both days.
Gas. the guys get to race both days if they want.
540 novice and Pro and stock guys get to run both days.
The brushless stock guys get to run both days and can drop a sintered rotor in for teh open 13.5 class or try another brand.
So everyone still gets the chance to run both days if they want. 3 x 2 day events per year is probably about the right number in my opinion.LikeLike
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mmm, i like it.
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Me too, as long as the the selected clubs run them inconjuction with there Club Cup events, we don’t need 3 more events added to the calendar.
Would like to see a controlled engine used for Gas Tourer, eg OS TG for the kit cars.
RTR cars can use the engine the car comes with.LikeLike
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Heavy, that has to be one of the best suggestions I have heard. I am not sure that anybody at all would be upset with it.
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